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	<title>Comments on: Multiple hypervisors?  What about multiple SANs?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/</link>
	<description>Informed Virtualization Criticism</description>
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		<title>By: Chris Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/#comment-11331</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Gilbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Dec 2010 11:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vcritical.com/?p=2608#comment-11331</guid>
		<description>VMware/Vsphere are excellent products.  That being said, they have a severe pricing issue.  We have 8 VMware ESXi 4 servers, running the free edition.  We have an Openfiler SAN/NAS device, exporting storage via NFS.  VMware gives us loads for free and works well.  However, when you want to upgrade a bit, their licensing steps on you heavily.  

There is no licensing option (which isn&#039;t extremely expensive) to allow us just to do simple things:

- Use vSphere vCentre (or whatever it&#039;s called now) for centralised management.
- Do backups using standard off the shelf backup software (currently using customised ghettoVCB scripts).
- Possibly live migration (but not that important)

Vmware Essentials you say?  No, that has a limit of 3 hosts.  After that, we must pay £757 per CPU for the Standard Edition.  That&#039;s absolutely ridiculous for the minimal amount of extra functionality from the free edition.

What to do?

We use the servers mostly for development purposes, and much as I would like to, I don&#039;t think I can get through £15,000 worth of software licenses... I had a hard enough time getting through a £5000 self-built SAN.

Essentials: GBP 380 (for 3 Servers), up to 6 CPUs
Standard: GBP 757.20 per CPU. 

There is no bridge between the two - you can&#039;t buy an essentials license and top it up with extra CPU licenses for more servers.  You can&#039;t buy two essentials licenses, only one.

This means standard costs at least £9084 for our current hardware.  That&#039;s just for the hosts though.

And then of course:

vCenter Server Foundation: GBP 1,140.00 - Ok fine.
vCenter Server Standard: GBP 3,795.00  - More than twice the price.

Plus, you must also pay for one year&#039;s support on top of all these license fees.  Not really feasible for a software business our size without a lot of planning - so we will have to struggle along with free edition.

The other major issue I have with VMware is - why the HELL do they keep changing the names of their products?  Is this just to confuse people?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VMware/Vsphere are excellent products.  That being said, they have a severe pricing issue.  We have 8 VMware ESXi 4 servers, running the free edition.  We have an Openfiler SAN/NAS device, exporting storage via NFS.  VMware gives us loads for free and works well.  However, when you want to upgrade a bit, their licensing steps on you heavily.  </p>
<p>There is no licensing option (which isn&#8217;t extremely expensive) to allow us just to do simple things:</p>
<p>- Use vSphere vCentre (or whatever it&#8217;s called now) for centralised management.<br />
- Do backups using standard off the shelf backup software (currently using customised ghettoVCB scripts).<br />
- Possibly live migration (but not that important)</p>
<p>Vmware Essentials you say?  No, that has a limit of 3 hosts.  After that, we must pay £757 per CPU for the Standard Edition.  That&#8217;s absolutely ridiculous for the minimal amount of extra functionality from the free edition.</p>
<p>What to do?</p>
<p>We use the servers mostly for development purposes, and much as I would like to, I don&#8217;t think I can get through £15,000 worth of software licenses&#8230; I had a hard enough time getting through a £5000 self-built SAN.</p>
<p>Essentials: GBP 380 (for 3 Servers), up to 6 CPUs<br />
Standard: GBP 757.20 per CPU. </p>
<p>There is no bridge between the two &#8211; you can&#8217;t buy an essentials license and top it up with extra CPU licenses for more servers.  You can&#8217;t buy two essentials licenses, only one.</p>
<p>This means standard costs at least £9084 for our current hardware.  That&#8217;s just for the hosts though.</p>
<p>And then of course:</p>
<p>vCenter Server Foundation: GBP 1,140.00 &#8211; Ok fine.<br />
vCenter Server Standard: GBP 3,795.00  &#8211; More than twice the price.</p>
<p>Plus, you must also pay for one year&#8217;s support on top of all these license fees.  Not really feasible for a software business our size without a lot of planning &#8211; so we will have to struggle along with free edition.</p>
<p>The other major issue I have with VMware is &#8211; why the HELL do they keep changing the names of their products?  Is this just to confuse people?</p>
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		<title>By: arl</title>
		<link>http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/#comment-11263</link>
		<dc:creator>arl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vcritical.com/?p=2608#comment-11263</guid>
		<description>Yes we tried, and failed.



Created 6 vdisks in SCST and used these in rhev data center.
We tested the scenario twice using different multiple vdisk setup.

We failed miserably because rhev vdsm python scripts somehow
failed. (checked even the python byte code).

The problem is that even though rhev constructs VG using vdisks as PV
it still does check PVs consistency every time one creates new resources.
The consistency check seems to fail and the problem is within rhev.

Those Red Hat &quot;engineers&quot; are just dummies - they actually cannot do
anything other that asking questions like &quot;have you contacted your SAN administrator?&quot;

Naturally all the engineers which are NOT dummies are used for development
because they are not dummies (maybe) ;-)



The fix was to create one larger vdisk. And this was not funny.

//arl

DirectTalk === some cultures cannot handle directly to the point going semi offensive articles. proof reader told to me. but why should I care?  [Sheldon Cooper]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes we tried, and failed.</p>
<p>Created 6 vdisks in SCST and used these in rhev data center.<br />
We tested the scenario twice using different multiple vdisk setup.</p>
<p>We failed miserably because rhev vdsm python scripts somehow<br />
failed. (checked even the python byte code).</p>
<p>The problem is that even though rhev constructs VG using vdisks as PV<br />
it still does check PVs consistency every time one creates new resources.<br />
The consistency check seems to fail and the problem is within rhev.</p>
<p>Those Red Hat &#8220;engineers&#8221; are just dummies &#8211; they actually cannot do<br />
anything other that asking questions like &#8220;have you contacted your SAN administrator?&#8221;</p>
<p>Naturally all the engineers which are NOT dummies are used for development<br />
because they are not dummies (maybe) <img src='http://www.vcritical.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The fix was to create one larger vdisk. And this was not funny.</p>
<p>//arl</p>
<p>DirectTalk === some cultures cannot handle directly to the point going semi offensive articles. proof reader told to me. but why should I care?  [Sheldon Cooper]</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Kenneth Noisewater</title>
		<link>http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/#comment-11170</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Kenneth Noisewater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vcritical.com/?p=2608#comment-11170</guid>
		<description>Wish I could help, but I gave up on RHEV about 1.5 months ago.  Perhaps when v3 comes out it&#039;ll be worth looking at again..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wish I could help, but I gave up on RHEV about 1.5 months ago.  Perhaps when v3 comes out it&#8217;ll be worth looking at again..</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/#comment-11169</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Sep 2010 16:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vcritical.com/?p=2608#comment-11169</guid>
		<description>Just out of curiosity, have you tried to get Red Hat support to help you with storage configuration?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just out of curiosity, have you tried to get Red Hat support to help you with storage configuration?</p>
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		<title>By: aumon</title>
		<link>http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/#comment-11168</link>
		<dc:creator>aumon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Sep 2010 07:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vcritical.com/?p=2608#comment-11168</guid>
		<description>Hi Friends,

Please help me to find some good RHEV deployment documentation.(not from Redhat)
I am strugling on the storage configuration part.

Regards,
Arumon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Friends,</p>
<p>Please help me to find some good RHEV deployment documentation.(not from Redhat)<br />
I am strugling on the storage configuration part.</p>
<p>Regards,<br />
Arumon</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Eric Gray</title>
		<link>http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/#comment-11014</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Aug 2010 03:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vcritical.com/?p=2608#comment-11014</guid>
		<description>Alzhy, that is fine if it works for you.  However, most companies don&#039;t have the time or resources to write their own scripts and tools for virtualization management.  But thank you for affirming one of my other messages, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.vcritical.com/2010/04/red-hat-enterprise-linux-is-not-enterprise-virtualization/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;RHEV is not RHEL + KVM&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alzhy, that is fine if it works for you.  However, most companies don&#8217;t have the time or resources to write their own scripts and tools for virtualization management.  But thank you for affirming one of my other messages, <a href="http://www.vcritical.com/2010/04/red-hat-enterprise-linux-is-not-enterprise-virtualization/" rel="nofollow">RHEV is not RHEL + KVM</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Kenneth Noisewater</title>
		<link>http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/#comment-11007</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Kenneth Noisewater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vcritical.com/?p=2608#comment-11007</guid>
		<description>RH says linux-based RHEV-M is scheduled for next year at the earliest.

Also, does your KVM solution do clustering and transparent host migration?  Hot-add CPU or RAM (which RHEV does _not_ do)?  Host consolidation and power control (which RHEV &quot;pretends&quot; to do but actually doesn&#039;t)?

If it were up to me, I&#039;d consider Ganeti as well, but the features of VMware are QUITE nice..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RH says linux-based RHEV-M is scheduled for next year at the earliest.</p>
<p>Also, does your KVM solution do clustering and transparent host migration?  Hot-add CPU or RAM (which RHEV does _not_ do)?  Host consolidation and power control (which RHEV &#8220;pretends&#8221; to do but actually doesn&#8217;t)?</p>
<p>If it were up to me, I&#8217;d consider Ganeti as well, but the features of VMware are QUITE nice..</p>
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		<title>By: Alzhy Wziak</title>
		<link>http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/#comment-11006</link>
		<dc:creator>Alzhy Wziak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 19:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vcritical.com/?p=2608#comment-11006</guid>
		<description>We run KVM on RHEL 5.4 as Hypervisor.
We no need RHEV-M as we manage via script and GUI.
So who needs RHEV-M?

But it will now be any day now and RHEV-M will be entirely JBOSS/Linux backend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We run KVM on RHEL 5.4 as Hypervisor.<br />
We no need RHEV-M as we manage via script and GUI.<br />
So who needs RHEV-M?</p>
<p>But it will now be any day now and RHEV-M will be entirely JBOSS/Linux backend.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Kenneth Noisewater</title>
		<link>http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/#comment-11004</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Kenneth Noisewater</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vcritical.com/?p=2608#comment-11004</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve just done a few rounds of evaluating RHEV on modern hardware (Nehalem Xeons) and compared to vSphere...  RHEV supports virtio drivers for system/boot disks for Linux, which the latest version of vSphere 4 we have does not (LSI SAS for boot, and pvscsi for data only).  RHEV&#039;s virtio drivers for disk and net are built into RHEL5 install, whereas vSphere needs to run guest additions.

Those are the only advantages that RHEV has, besides pricing.  Feature parity with vSphere 4 they&#039;re promising for some time next year.

Plus, the RHEV-M runs on Windows, which for a Linux company is thunderously retarded.  Hell, ganeti is more supportable from a Linux person&#039;s perspective than RHEV-M, and if I could get ganeti working properly with gluster..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve just done a few rounds of evaluating RHEV on modern hardware (Nehalem Xeons) and compared to vSphere&#8230;  RHEV supports virtio drivers for system/boot disks for Linux, which the latest version of vSphere 4 we have does not (LSI SAS for boot, and pvscsi for data only).  RHEV&#8217;s virtio drivers for disk and net are built into RHEL5 install, whereas vSphere needs to run guest additions.</p>
<p>Those are the only advantages that RHEV has, besides pricing.  Feature parity with vSphere 4 they&#8217;re promising for some time next year.</p>
<p>Plus, the RHEV-M runs on Windows, which for a Linux company is thunderously retarded.  Hell, ganeti is more supportable from a Linux person&#8217;s perspective than RHEV-M, and if I could get ganeti working properly with gluster..</p>
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		<title>By: Anton Zhbankov</title>
		<link>http://www.vcritical.com/2010/06/multiple-hypervisors-what-about-multiple-sans/#comment-10920</link>
		<dc:creator>Anton Zhbankov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vcritical.com/?p=2608#comment-10920</guid>
		<description>&gt;When staying in the same price range, RHEV is indeed as good as vSphere.

Really? Looks like Red Hat is kidding. HA depends on single point of failure - physical Windows box. Your whole infrastructure depends on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;When staying in the same price range, RHEV is indeed as good as vSphere.</p>
<p>Really? Looks like Red Hat is kidding. HA depends on single point of failure &#8211; physical Windows box. Your whole infrastructure depends on it.</p>
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